How to avoid mistakes when investing in vacation rental property?

Apr 25, 2023

Mike Pine: [00:00:00] Welcome to The Hidden Money Podcast. Kevin and I are excited to have Shawn Moore part of this today. And Shawn is one of my personal heroes in life and he's helped a lot of people grow some financial freedom.

And thank you very much for joining us. Shawn.

Shawn Moore: Absolutely guys, we're really excited to be here with you.

Mike Pine: Awesome. One of coolest things I've found about you as I've gotten to know you over the last couple years is your life story. Yeah. You're known and on the Vacation Revolution Podcast, you're known for helping people get and secure lifestyle assets and build up financial freedom.

But how did you get started in this? What got you to where you are today?

Shawn Moore: Yeah. So we have to go back. I wish I didn't have as many gray hairs as I do, but it's been 22 years into the investing game and really looking back it didn't start off obviously in vacation homes.

We started off buying and selling and fixing, flipping homes for a long time. But when I look back at me, back then I was. [00:01:00] I was this cocky, selfish, really this punk kid who thought he was the end all be all to real estate investing.

I was making some money and fixing flips and I would show up at real estate investing club meetings, not to learn anything but more to put my chest out and tell everybody how great I was. And at the time there was this old guy named George that put his arm around me and he said, Hey Shawn, you gotta stop referring to yourself as this real estate investor you've got.

You've got a job fixing and flipping houses until you start to build something with passive income. You really aren't an investor, right? You don't really have anything other than just you, this is just earned income that you're making, and at that time George really hurt my feelings.

But it was one of those times in life that I remember one of those conversations even though I'm mad at George, maybe he's right, maybe I need to start doing something else. And this was back in, I started doing this back in 2000, and this was about, in that 2002 - 2003 range.

and I started buying single family long-term rentals. And for those of you that are listening, as I've been up and down a [00:02:00] lot of different asset classes in real estate, we ultimately landed on vacation rentals, which is what we do today. But I love real estate in general, and when I tell you all these different asset classes, I think real estate is one of the best investment tools for the average everyday person to build wealth long term.

But for me, I bought a whole bunch of single family rentals. I bought 52 properties, most of them single families, a couple duplexes mixed in there over the course of a couple years and kept doing our fix and flip business. Started building up our long-term portfolio and not doing bad with it, it's paying its bills, but it was just a pain.

I still didn't like it. My attitude of, that cocky 22 year old was still there, right? I was like, this isn't that fun. I don't like dealing with the tenant situation, not making that much money compared to what I can do in fix and flip. So in 2005, we made the decision to sell all those properties and we ended up getting rid of our entire portfolio and, a year or two year and a half, We looked like geniuses and sure, at that [00:03:00] time I acted like a damn genius, which it wasn't, was the biggest mistake I ever made.

But still not changing that attitude at all. And so we got rid of this passive investment, 52 properties. Imagine having those now. At the time, somebody else was paying for 'em. I was making positive cash flow on 'em. I wasn't getting rich off of 'em. I was making, on that entire portfolio, I was putting in my pocket about $3,500 a month.

So it wasn't like it was life changing money, which is why it didn't keep my interest and so I got rid of all these properties. We're at 2009. 

I lost everything. I lost my house, I lost my vehicle. I had nothing. And except for one property, and I actually had a second home that we bought in 2006 that we actually kept. And we started renting it out. And it was my first introduction to maybe this asset works, right?

Maybe this short term rental side works because the mark, the real estate market was tanking, I was able to have a vacation home that somebody else was paying for way before it was really popular and [00:04:00] still nothing really clicked there other than. It's interesting that's what I kept versus my, even my personal home.

I didn't even I wasn't even able to keep my vehicles in my personal home. But it's, keep that in the back of your mind that I had this asset. As time went on, I jumped into the real estate market. I went and hired a mentor. Long story short, we came, we became I just was hustling, right?

I was just I became a real estate agent, had a license. Never had done that in the past. Had no money to invest at this stage. Lost everything. Became the rookie of the year in Utah. We won a Quantum Leap award the two years later we're the large sales team of the year in Utah from 2009, 10, 11. And if you remember, the market is going like this, going down during that timeframe, and we're just going, we're just expanding right on, on that. And that. is when my wife and I, Theresa and I, we had dealt with fertility issues for a long time, and it was something that we struggled with for years. We started getting pretty serious about [00:05:00] really trying to build a family.

We started making a little bit of money again and really struggling to have kids and and I always, and I've told the story a million times, but it's, I always, it. If it wasn't for Theresa, we probably wouldn't have kids. I was still that selfish guy that was like, Hey, listen, we're finally making money.

But it's an emotional time. If anybody's ever dealt with fertility.

You're not always seeing eye to eye. I remember to this day , I was ready to tell Theresa, no, we're not gonna do this. We just can't afford to drain the bank account right now. We just lost everything a couple years ago. We can't take this gamble.

And I had every logical argument lined up to have this conversation. I just couldn't say it. 

And I have a strong faith in God personally. And it was like, I couldn't argue this. And so Teresa came and. She said, we're gonna do this, and we did it. And that is, we ended up doing. Long story short, we ended up doing in vitro fertilization and we got pregnant with [00:06:00] twins and we had Wyatt and Grace in 2011, and that is when my life completely changed.

That is when I started, I just asked myself different questions, Mike, like I was. I looked back and was like almost just embarrassed of how I acted before, and I started to say, what do I want Wyatt and Grace to grow up thinking, what do I want them when they start to grow up and they look at me, who do I want them to see?

And it wasn't the person that I was, it was always about me and it was always about making money. It was always about something different. And at that time in my life, I started to really ask more questions of what do I really want here and what do I really want outta life?

Few years run down the line and I'm still asking those questions. I didn't get the answers right away. And we were actually in Hawaii and my kids, we take 'em to Hawaii every year for their birthday. And we were on the beach in Hawaii and they said, I was visibly upset about a development deal we were working on.

I was talking on the phone and Wyatt just comes up and grabs my hand and he is dad, if you don't like real estate in Utah, you should just do it here in Hawaii, cuz it'll be way better, and . And so [00:07:00] it made me think though, it that, it's funny that just a little question, right?

You don't know where it's gonna lead. But at the time, I have all these different things stacking up in my own head of what do I really wanna do? And I think we've all asked ourselves that at times. What do I really wanna do? What am I good at one? But also what really is fulfilling to me, and I loved real estate and I really liked the hospitality game.

I really loved that time of our career where we were in that game. And so that's when really we started paying really close attention to this game we call short-term rentals now.

On the coaching side I've told people forever, I've never thought of myself as a coach. 

Started getting emails and people saying, Hey, this was really fun. Seems like you know what you're doing here. You were helpful here for me. Appreciate you sharing that. And I started, one thing led to another, and before we know it, we've got Vodyssey and I can't imagine life without it now.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, that's great. You're, that's a strong story and I think you're gonna help a lot of people even pivoting [00:08:00] outside of just finance, just life in general. You're a wealth of knowledge and growing up. I've always been taught, stocks, bonds, mutual funds, 401k, retirement safe save, and you've almost pivoted away from that.

Do you invest in the market or how do you get outside the thought process of traditional retirement planning? Cuz that's ingrained in people. Go to college, get a finance degree. short-term rentals. I don't know. I've been outta college for quite a while, but nothing of real estate was talked about outside of traditional long-term rentals.

And this is really outside the box thinking. So how did you get to the point where you're like, eh, I don't really need these stocks and bonds to really grow my wealth

Shawn Moore: Yeah, good. It's a great question and one. Real estate has always been what the lane that I've been in now.

And real estate, though, has been around for a long time, right? Real estate has stood the test of time. It's been around forever. The thing I love about real estate is the leverage involved and [00:09:00] not over leveraging, you can only put so much effort into something.

You can only put so much money into something when you can take time, money, and knowledge and leverage it into whatever it is, whether it's real estate or anything else. That's how you start to compound your success with something. And I can apply leverage to all three of those things with real estate.

And for me, that is the key of why I say, okay, I can't really do that with a lot of other vehicles, particularly stocks, mutual funds. Somebody else is in control of that for me. And so I want to be doing something that I have control of, tangible and I've got leverage in. And that's why real estate is so attractive to me.

Mike Pine: That's great. So you mentioned in your personal story that during the downturn of the 2008 kind of real estate crash and the years after that, you found an asset class that still continued to make money even though the entire economy was either in free fall or it was definitely sputtering. You found an area that, hey, you were [00:10:00] still growing and right now this podcast is gonna be released in 2023.

Our economy is experiencing some serious headwinds and a lot of uncertainty. What do you think about the attractiveness and the solidity of vacation rentals and real estate in a market like today or an economy like today? What are your thoughts?

Shawn Moore: Yeah, it's a great question cuz I don't know technically how far we're into it, whether we're gonna start it, we've got some definite headwinds that we're dealing with on a lot of different fronts and there's a lot of global uncertainty as well, not just here and the US economy, economies around the world, we're probably one of the stronger ones, right? So there's a lot of uncertainty out there that's not gonna go away. One thing that, that I believe, and when you look back and really pay attention, one recessions, the average recessions 18 months.

And so things are cyclical, things are good, things are bad. We have to make those adjustments. There's always shifting markets. We've had a really good run for a really long. , whenever that [00:11:00] happens, a market naturally needs to start to correct itself and that's across the board, not just in real estate.

And so those corrections are a good thing. and short-term rentals has been really good, really hot. It's been the Wild West for awhile. Everybody has gotten into it, and now it's starting to become mainstream. It's ready for a correction. It's really good for a market to have these corrections.

The interesting thing is people assume they stopped vacationing. People don't stop vacationing. One. Economies are. Not across the board. Recessions are not across the board industry wide. There are certain industries that will do well. There are certain industries that are gonna struggle in any sort of a recession.

So those people that are doing well, they're gonna still vacation. But guess what I realized back in the last one when our property, it wasn't the luxury property, it was a cabin on Lake in Utah, modest property. And we had a lot of people that came and visited our property that were.

During. It wasn't during the best of times for them either, [00:12:00] but guess what they said? I just needed a little getaway and. Short-term rentals also are a very economical way to travel and for a lot of people, because you can share space, you've got full kitchens, so you don't have to eat out all the time, and so I do believe it.

It's one of those things that's just, it's always been there. It's going to be there during the good times and the bad times and you're not just going to be able to throw something up and have it operate. Do you need to do it right? Do you need to make some adjustments during these times? Absolutely. But the demand is, the demand still is through the roof.

I don't know if anybody's gotten, went to a, their, that's listening. That's been on in an airport recently. Airline tickets are through the roof right now. Yet there's airlines are more crowded. And so people still are going to get away. People are still going to want to travel. Drive to destinations are gonna become more and more popular just like they were during Covid.

They're more economical to get to so [00:13:00] different things that you're gonna look at. But this is a very mainstream asset at this stage. 

So there's a lot of good signs that this industry is here to stay for the long term, and that's why we do it anyways, is for the long term.

Mike Pine: I agreed. So let's say, someone says, Hey, I would like to foray.

I want to think about getting into the short term rental world and and the market. I wanna make an investment in that. They're incredible tax advantages of doing so. For some people, and we'll get into that, but our short-term rentals, vacation rentals, are they the right investment for everybody? Are there specific people or specific circumstances that someone should really think, Hey, this is right for me, or maybe this isn't right for me.

Shawn Moore: Yeah, it's a great question and no, they're not right for everybody. There's every asset class has pros and cons, including short-term rentals, and so some of the pros and some of the cons, right? One. If you are, they are, you're gonna have a little more personal involvement on a short term rental.

More than you would say investing in a syndication first. You know [00:14:00] you're gonna, you're not going to give your money to necessarily to an operator. You're going to want to be involved in that. And so if you don't have a little bit extra time, I don't teach anybody to do this as a side hustle.

Some people do. That's not what we do. We buy 'em for ownership. We have professional managers on all of our properties, but we. We still have to be involved in the acquisition. We have to be involved in the setup and creating this unique experience. If that's not for you, short-term rentals are probably not the right fit for you.

And there's other assets that are gonna be a bit more passive that you can invest in that way. On the tax side. If you are paying a decent tax bill, they can be a phenomenal vehicle to reduce that. You guys introduced us to that and understand that way better than I can talk about it, obviously, there's a, I wouldn't buy short-term rentals just for the taxes because of the thing I told you before because if it's a long-term asset and you're buying it just for the tax savings, that's also a mistake as well. But if you would love to own a property like this, you love the [00:15:00] hospitality space, you would like to use some of the assets and have that tangible use out of it, and you can take advantage of the taxes. It can be a compounding effect that is huge for a lot of people.

Mike Pine: absolutely.

Kevin Schneider: That's a good point our job being CPAs is to get your taxes just buried in the ground we want zero taxable income. But we also have to keep mindful of the financial trajectory of your plan. We gotta keep in mind your stress levels because we can hammer away at your tax bill.

Go buy a car. Go that, do you know how much equipment that is? You may not wanna manage a car wash and be a car wash owner. So it's always balancing what you're comfortable with risk versus tax, because as Shawn alluded to with on the tax side of things, there's going to be that.

It's the material participation of this rental property is what triggers the availability of large losses offsetting your active earned 10 99 income, your W2 income, even other passive streams or portfolio income, whatever your income [00:16:00] looks like. There's ways to utilize these short-term rental assets to, first we want to find a smart asset that cash flows.

Then we want to see if we can harvest some tax benefit on there. And that's where the beauty comes in, is because oftentimes, depending on the, where you buy the size of property, you can almost fund your next short term rental property, if not all the way on a down payment. Using the leveraging, like Shawn was saying, and that's why this is really attractive, is because if we're able to save $50,000 in tax by buying a $600,000 short term rental property. That's 50,000 to put down towards another property in that next year. And now we're talking snowballing a portfolio. We're talking major leg up against your traditional stock bond mutual fund thing where it's just growing in your fickle with the market outta your control.

Now you're in direct control of your wealth.

Shawn Moore: Yeah, and that's what we talk about, leverage. Now you're leveraging leverage, right? [00:17:00] I was able to leverage my down payment and now I'm able to use these tax advantages that we have with short-term rentals, recapture a decent amount of that, sometimes 60, 70% of that down payment to put into the next property.

Now all of a sudden you really start compounding that effect. And it, and you're it's a good point too, Kevin. And where we talk. Work with the best, if you like. That's why we work with you guys. I used to think, I've been in the real estate game for 22 years. I had the same C P A for 15 years.

I thought he understood the real estate game really well and great guy and I still talked to him to this day. Had no clue how to leverage some of these different things that we're doing because he, he had the very, a very narrow lane that we worked in and didn't know a lot of the other things that we were doing because and I shouldn't expect him to either, but if you're thinking about a couple different assets, talk to the right team. Like you guys have own business owners who invest in syndications businesses different, energy types of [00:18:00] investments, as well as short term rentals, right? And you can say, Hey, listen, I'm thinking about this in my situation.

What do you thinking here? What does this look like? because you don't know the answer, like you don't know what you don't know, and surrounding yourself with the right people. When we started really working heavily with you guys, it's, it's a game changer for us. Like the, what we're able to do with properties and strategically plan out what we're doing and having those conversations and the beforehand and what we're gonna, what the future looks like and what we're gonna strategically acquire or do.

and make those decisions is huge and can be. If you are a high income earner and you are paying a lot of taxes, and even if you're not, if you are paying taxes, there's ways that you can go about it to where you ultimately reduce it as much as possible, but not just reduce it to put more money in your pocket.

That's ultimately a plan. But what can you do to now leverage that into something else to really compound that effect and continue to grow. 

Mike Pine: Yeah.

Kevin Schneider: So what are some pitfalls like did your coach tell you? Market [00:19:00] pitfalls, like what are the biggest, Shawn, what are the biggest pitfalls that you see with people getting into short-term rentals? 

Shawn Moore: So one of the biggest pitfalls is these are harder deals to underwrite. You have to peel back a lot of layers of the onion and you have to look at a lot of moving parts.

When you're looking at a lot of moving parts, trying to capture those moving parts and put it all together to paint the right picture is difficult. So when you're looking on Airbnb or VRBO and or you look on some of these sites that tell you the market, the average nightly rates in the market or the average occupancies, and you just try to capture that and calculate it across the board, it can be very misleading on the amount of money that you're gonna make in a property.

And the other thing that you don't see, and that you really need to understand in short-term rentals, very particularly is there's a big range in revenue in a market. If you have a three bedroom, three bath property in a vacation rental market, if I have a long-term rental, there's a market rent for a three bed, three bath in most, most long-term markets.

That is fairly close. It's a fairly narrow gap, right? If you, if [00:20:00] it's, based on your location and the size. Our market rents are gonna be pretty close to a certain monthly number. Short-term rentals is exactly the opposite. That gap is really wide, and you're gonna find that.

Okay. When I start one, if I actually run the underwriting, you start having to underwrite the area first. And I look and say, okay, what is my revenue gap for a three bed, three bath in this market? And I'm, you're gonna find it's a really wide number. There's gonna be a high side on the average night rates.

There's going to, we tier it into 20th percentiles. We do, we, we have five tiers in a market. When we underwrite. and then we on revenue and then also on occupancy. And then you have to take all these different calculations. You don't just calculate across the board, like high occupancy, high revenue, medium occupancy, medium revenue, low occupancy, low revenue.

It's not how you have to do it. You have to look at it a whole bunch of different ways. So when you're looking at all these different calculations, how do you actually underwrite? First of all, and then when I look at properties, how do I plug a property in to see how it's gonna perform? And so it can be [00:21:00] really difficult.

It's the biggest mistake that I see people making all the time when I talk to 'em, is they say, oh no I have a pretty good idea of how this is gonna operate and how this is gonna run. And ask 'em how to show me, and it's shocking how far off I believe they are. And we, we've done this a lot of thousands of times and so we're pretty accurate with our underwriting.

You've gotta figure out what it takes to stand out of the top, what can I do to create this experience? What can I do? Because it's not just about the property now.

Mike Pine: Having the right team is incredibly important. Incredibly important. So my wife and I, and Kevin and his wife are all members of Vodyssey and we've had a good year at the firm this year, and I was looking for tax benefits for years now. I've seen clients get into short-term rentals, get incredible tax benefit.

A lot of clients who are in the highest tax rate, their tax savings from placing a short term rental into service. Easily pay for their down payment on that property and then they can just go and buy another one. I love the idea that I wanted a tax break. I started taking the courses on Vodyssey. We had a call with our coach, my wife and I did, and it was [00:22:00] our Vodyssey coach that said, Hey and we always tell our clients from the tax perspective, don't ever let the tax tail wag the business dog.

It was actually our Vodyssey coach that said, you guys don't have time to do this year. If you wanna do it right. Do it when you have the time and this year probably isn't the right year to do it. We're now scheduling the time and planning out to do it next year.

But if we had not had an important key member like that, I don't, I think we would've probably just gone and paid, bought something without being ready for it, without having thought it all through, without having underwritten it. And I think we'd be regretting it right now. Found somewhere else to save taxes.

But agreed. Don't ever let the tax tail wag your business dog. Don't let your desire to grow a financial portfolio or an asset portfolio make your business decision for you. You gotta make smart business decisions first.

Kevin Schneider: Yeah, and if I'm listening to this, I'm getting overwhelmed and the only reason I would be overwhelmed is because you've mentioned underwriting, you've mentioned coaching, finance, tax. There's so many areas here, and you even hinted at this in your book, what the hell is a lifestyle asset [00:23:00] where you need to form a team?

Because I wouldn't know where to start. I, if. Looking to get into my first rental property, what I would probably do is call Joe Bob, my realtor, and be like, Hey, Joe, Bob, I want to go buy something in this. I just like to vacation in Florida. Go, go find me something. That's where I would start.

And you're probably just rolling your eyes, but where would you start and what's the importance of forming this team and how do you even, how do you get plugged in to a team?

Shawn Moore: Yeah, it's a great question. And one of the things too, Kevin, overwhelm comes all the time. When we go into anything new, we get overwhelmed because we ask the wrong question. We always ask, how am I gonna do this? How do I figure this out? How? How can I do? This, the be the better question is if anybody starts feeling overwhelmed, start asking your question, who knows how to do this better than I do?

Who has done this before? Start finding that and that goes right into the team. I always ask, who knows how to do this? Maybe it's realtor Joe Bob in Florida, but if he is, I, realtors are a [00:24:00] key part of our dream team. Like I love realtors. I work with 'em in every single market we go into, but I wanna make sure that when I'm going into short-term rentals, I'm working with somebody that really understands that game that I'm playing at least and really is, understands the market.

Now, when I say understands the game that we're playing, You're gonna have multiple people on that dream team, right? I'm not gonna ask Joe Bob about my taxes, right? I'm gonna ask Mike and Kevin about my taxes. I'm gonna, I'm not gonna ask somebody else to underwrite, even a realtor to underwrite my deal.

I'm gonna find somebody who understands how to underwrite and learn from them. I'm not gonna ask you guys on taxes, how should we manage these properties? Or who should I talk to on management? If I'm writing the check for a property, That I'm gonna make sure that I understand.

I always tell people I take great pride in being the dumbest person in the room. In most conversations, that means that I'm surrounding myself with really smart people, right? And and that's not hard to beat me. So my point of that is I take great pride in finding the best in the business [00:25:00] of instead of saying, Hey, I need to go do this today.

How am I gonna do? My how always comes down to who can help me figure it out, right? When you surround yourself with the right team, that overwhelm will start to go away. And so does procrastination, because when we start to ask how we all of a sudden say, I don't know how to do this, so I'm not gonna move forward.

And we, it's this vicious circle. We never move forward. When you find people that know how to do it and they're like, oh yeah, that's easy, right? We pay people. To help us learn the obvious, something that's obvious to somebody else is not obvious to me. I've spent a small fortune every single year on coaches and advisors to show what is obvious to them.

because they're really good at, but it's not obvious to me. So set your ego aside when it comes to doing some of these things and say, Hey, listen, it's okay. Go read some books. There's books out there there's podcasts like this. You can go get a lot of information. That's not the problem right now is a lack of information.

And then when you start to dive into the right fits that you feel like are the right fit, [00:26:00] start to peel back a few more layers of the onion, start to work with some of those individuals and you will. Shocked at how fast you progress and how much you can accelerate your progress by surrounding yourself with people that already know how to do it.

Whatever you're going out and trying to do.

Mike Pine: That's great. Since we are tax CPAs, not Shawn, but Kevin and I, let us just quickly unravel the layer of the awesome tax benefits and advantages available for vacation rentals. If you buy a vacation rental and you materially participate in it, let's use Shawn's example that the property that was worth four fifty and now it's going for 4 25, you spend $425,000 on a vacation rental.

Let's say you put 10% down, 42 and a half grand into it, you're gonna get some. Tax deduction. Again, you have to materially participate and I'm sure Kevin, and I'll do a whole show on that soon enough, but as long as you materially participate, you're gonna get somewhere between 80 to $120,000 of a tax deduction that you can utilize to write off your active income.

If you're paying [00:27:00] taxes at one of the higher marginal tax rates, that deduction is gonna recover your down payment and potentially then, So you're basically getting the I R S Uncle Sam to subsidize your down payment to get you in the short term rental arena. And that's just beautiful. And you can do that year after year where in, in theory, you're not even coming out pocket.

To buy these properties, but you own them and you own the growth in them. You own their fair market value increase year after year, at least decade after decade. And that's just a beautiful thing. I absolutely love that hidden money in the taxes offer real estate especially short term rentals.

Shawn Moore: I was just gonna say, it's huge. If people don't understand and there will be so many people that will say, you can't do that because of this or my, you can't do that because of this. Don't find somebody who, like I said before, knows how to do this and talk to Mike and Kevin about this.

This is something you do all day every day, even if you have full service property managers on it. I have full service property managers on every one of my properties. We're still able to materially [00:28:00] participate, especially that first year that you purchased the property. One of the properties that we just bought, it was $805,000 acquisition.

We're gonna, we're gonna be getting a write off on that. We did some work to it, but we're gonna get a tax write off of about $360,000, which is gonna reduce our taxes on this year's taxes. Reduce my taxes by about 1 65 on that property. I only put $200,000 down, so my net into this property is 35 grand.

And now you start to run your return on investment there. That's, and now and I can take that 1 65 and put it right back into another property. It's crazy how fast you can compound your growth.

Mike Pine: Thank you for that. You've helped thousands of people successfully build wealth in vacation homes using your formulas. Can you tell us a little bit how and where people can learn if they're interested in implementing these formulas for themselves?

Shawn Moore: Awesome. Yeah, just go to VOD Y S S E We've got a lot of free trainings on there. [00:29:00] We've got a podcast, vacation rental for Revolution. You can go listen to, you can find all of it. Just on You can find our YouTube channel. But also, you alluded to the book, what the Hell is a lifestyle asset that's on Amazon as a bests seller, but you can go get a free PDF copy if you want.

On our website, go sign up. We'll send you a, a link to get that. You can just go through the whole book. If you wanna order on Amazon, get a hard copy, you're welcome to do so there as well. 

Mike Pine: So that's Please check out the show notes. We'll have it there. And I'm also a member and so is Kevin. And we really believe in your program. We've seen the success of so many of our clients that have gone through your program. We're huge believers and we're grateful for the time that you've given us today.


Kevin Schneider: Yeah.

Shawn Moore: Absolutely, guys. It's awesome. I could spend as much time as you guys would give me. You guys are awesome. You guys are expert advisors in our Vodyssey group as well for a reason.

And for those of you listening, if you need tax advice, you better check these guys out. They're not gonna themselves. So I'm gonna pitch for you[00:30:00] 

Kevin Schneider: Thank you for that.

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